In this episode of Pipeline Things, Christopher and Rhett break down RIN 2 and World Cup SMEs (subject matter experts). Rhett defines Seagal engineering, and Christopher dives into everything you could want to know about RIN 2’s new SME requirements. Tune in now!
Highlights:
– Who’s the true SME of the World Cup: Rhett or Christopher?
– What should you do if you think your SME is wrong?
– How do SMEs in RIN 1 compare to RIN 2?
– Seagal Engineering
– What makes an SME?
Have any questions about the episode? Submit them for Rhett & Christopher to answer in an upcoming Q&A!
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Pipeline Things is presented by D2 Integrity and produced by ADV Marketing.
Rhett Dotson
Welcome to today’s edition of Pipeline Things. As we get into the subject of SMEs and REN 2 of the updated gas world, where we also talk about the World Cup. So, Chris, would you agree? Pretty much everybody knows that the United States, the superior team to Mexico, correct.
Christopher de Leon
I don’t know if you’re qualified to make that statement
Rhett Dotson
Have you reviewed by qualifications as an SME
Christopher de Leon
just because you have a P, doesn’t mean you’re an expert?
Rhett Dotson
Well, you know what objective evidence attests to that this year? Because we got to the round of 16. We hope that you will enjoy this episode. Look forward to deep diving with us on SMEs and we hope you enjoy it. Thanks for joining us.
All right. Welcome to today’s edition of Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, and my co-host, compadre friend, business partner. I can come up all sorts of names for you
Christopher de Leon
homie. Crony. There’s all kinds of things.
Rhett Dotson
All positive, all positive. But designate it. Understood. World Cup SME for my family.
Christopher de Leon
Are you talking about me?
Rhett Dotson
Yes, I’m talking about you. So it’s, clearly, this is the once every four years where, people in America, the rest of the world watches it much more. Yeah, but everyone in America turns their attention towards soccer.
Christopher de Leon
Can you imagine the anticipation? So on average, and again, don’t check my math, but I think the World Cup is roughly like every thousand 500 days.
So like that’s kind of why it’s a big deal if you think,
Rhett Dotson
you know, a whole lot of people just try to do 356 times four in their head, whatever.
Christopher de Leon
You know, it’s kind of it’s kind of the whole lot?
Rhett Dotson
My wife asked this question, why does it every four years, do you know?
Christopher de Leon
I just I don’t know the actual reason.
I just think it makes it that much more exciting.
Rhett Dotson
I thought I was like the Olympics every four years. Why would the World Cup be every four years?
Christopher de Leon
But don’t the Olympics alternate every two between summer and winter?
Rhett Dotson
Come on, you’re not old enough to remember. It used to be that way. Yeah, they changed that so they could start having, like, Olympic type events every two years.
When I was growing up, they used to be summer. Winter.
Christopher de Leon
So, the cool thing about football is there’s a lot of it to be seen at the club level, which is like for example, this year. Right? So, there’s a lot of major tournaments like the master’s every year or whatever baseball calls it
And so it’s pretty cool. And but this is a world stage. So, this is really awesome. It kind of gets exciting. We saw a stat, right that I think the last Super Bowl, 100 million people saw it in the last World Cup final. Like a billion people saw it.
I don’t know if it’s true. I saw it on social media. So don’t check me.
Rhett Dotson
There are ten times the number of people that tune in to the I mean, 1 billion people.
Christopher de Leon
That’s a lot. That’s it for the world. Yeah, that’s a lot. That is it’s kind of like the Peyton Manning Beckham commercials of football or soccer.
I mean, it kind of depends, right?
Rhett Dotson
But it’s funny because So you guys, don’t know, my family has to call Christopher. I can follow the rules. Like, I think some of the rules in soccer. But Caleb will get into the game and he’s like, dad, are they playing well? And I’m like, I have no idea.
Well, you just text Mr. Christopher and ask him what he thinks of the United States performance, or anybody else’s performance during the game, and let him tell you what he thinks they should be doing.
Christopher de Leon
That’s fun. So, it’s always good. Yeah. You know what, if you think about it, to meet some of the qualifications Latino played growing up, watch it on a regular basis.
Rhett Dotson
Look, it’s a chance for you to break down for the audience. I don’t know how many people know that about you, Christopher, that you were pretty serious. I try to tell people Christopher wasn’t just like a slight soccer fan like you. Borderline wanted to play professionally for another country.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, I moved to another country for a while to try to make this my, my profession.
So, if you look at North America, I think the US does a great job more now of structuring the development of their talent for like you, your, when I was growing up, it was the Olympic Development program. That was a great way for you to get highlighted as a, as a player. Then you’d go to college and eventually end up in the MLS.
But for example, like the rest of the world, like in Mexico, the club team. So, like the Astros would be if we talk about baseball as an analogy, they will find talent as early as 11 years old and bring them into their club. And so, at the age of 13 or 14, you make money. And so, they provide housing, they provide you with education.
You train every day. They do. You have a nutritionist at least. So, like for example, Messi is Argentinian, but he grew up in the football club of Barcelona. And I think he transferred over like 11 years old. So, imagine being a dad sending your son away at the age of 11 years old to be with Club Barcelona.
Rhett Dotson
I honestly had no idea.
Christopher de Leon
So, it’s different.
Rhett Dotson
I’m glad that you didn’t make it.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, so I got to play for my favorite team, the Royals, Monterrey for a little while. It’s the Monterrey team. And so that’s when I got exposure. I didn’t get exposure since I was like 14, so I was a little bit late and then more aggressively when I was 17.
Rhett Dotson
Wait, but I feel like I’m carrying the segue way too far. No, I’m just into all this. You still have one of your old jerseys?
Christopher de Leon
I have a lot of jerseys. Still. Yeah, I have a bag full of them. In case a Leo wants to wear them one day.
Rhett Dotson
Oh I have nothing like that.
Christopher de Leon
but I got. I got mounds of trophies, too. Believe it or not.
Rhett Dotson
Caleb plays trombone with my old trombone from high school.
Christopher de Leon
So. But yeah. So, the World Cup’s fun, man. It’s been it’s been it’s been good.
It makes known. You know what’s interesting is it’s normally the summer and because I was in Qatar, they had to shift it to the winter because of the temperatures. Which I feel like is cool because we’re mixing in with holidays, you know what I mean? We got to be here Thanksgiving weekend, and you have football going on every day.
I mean, the weather in Houston is decent.
Rhett Dotson
Caleb was just upset because he couldn’t watch the game. So, school. But apparently his teachers all have them on, that is all. Watch them.
Christopher de Leon
So, well, you know, another funny story. So, Caleb is getting exposure to football, soccer, and doing the World Cup.
I also saw on social media that the US goalie he got exposure to, he was a baseball player, got exposure to the World Cup the last time the US played England ten years ago and now he’s our starting goalie. Caleb could be the starter. He might be the starting goalie in ten years.
Rhett Dotson
All right. Well, let’s go ahead. So, today our topic is carrying on Ren 2. Right. And we’re going to be talking about the role of SMEs. Within Ren 2. And full disclosure for the audience. I want you to know when you presented me with this topic because this topic was your idea. So, if you’ll like it, you can let Christopher know.
but when you presented it to me, I was a little bit kind of like he wasn’t so sure. Yeah. But as I read the background to, the introduction of SMEs within Ren 2, I kind of got on board, within liking, with liking the topic.
a lot of what’s in here we’re going to talk about today. I’m excited. So, what, what I want to kind of open with a little bit is talking about, I call it what and why. And I think to you, you’re just like, that’s not really that interesting, maybe because it ties to you, but they placed such an emphasis on it within Ren 2.
And I want to read just a little bit of the background. You know, to put things in perspective is in a risk-based IM approach. Data collection and integration is the backbone of an effective integrity management program. But we gloss over that statement so much. Right. This is the standard garbage in garbage out.
Yeah. But FEMSA are saying look if you’re going to have an effective integrity management program, the collection and integration of that data is essential, right? And then they said, you know, they go through, and they talk about, their ideas for operators, what they should have been doing. Yeah. But they say the over application of assumptions in the absence of real data, even if those assumptions are conservative, can lead to skews, skewed or otherwise inaccurate analysis of risk results.
Right. And then they point to the fact that to the degree that subjective data from SMEs must be used, FEMSA would require programs that include specific features to compensate for SME bias, and that those three statements together, I think, provide the genesis of what we’re going to talk about today. Input into your data integration program is critical for the proper application
Christopher de Leon
Because you’re making decisions off it.
Rhett Dotson
because you’re making decisions off it.
Second, you must rely on assumptions, assumptions that are often based on some input. Therefore, you need to make sure that that’s valid.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. Right. And let’s put it into frame. And the reason why I thought this was important was we had to do this quite a bit when I was an operator. Right. So, let’s assume your IM program started around 2004.
If we just let’s put that into perspective. And you’re at that time up until about 2012, when you were still doing your baseline assessments. What we’re talking about here is threat identification and risk assessment. Right. So what threats am I susceptible to in those times you probably didn’t have all the data in a system in a way to understand what you’re truly susceptible to or not.
And so, we leverage this concept of continuous improvement. Right. So, you do baselines. And then based on what you learned from the baseline with the whole integrity cycle though. Right. So, I collected data for it. I did an assessment I learned from that assessment. Maybe I did some digs. I learned about my coding and my material properties. You then take all that and you reintegrate that the next time around through continued evaluation.
And so, the point is this when you were standing up these integrity programs, you didn’t always have the data. So, you kind of relied on SMEs. Right. Let’s use that. So, let’s say for example, you stood up this risk model because you needed one and it was asking you for coding type. And they, you use B 30 18S for SEC susceptibility.
And if you have the right age operating pressures, environment and coding, then you could be susceptible. But if an asset that we had we’ve been operating for 50 years, we never found SEC on it. But your risk program was telling you that it was your highest segment of SEC. But I have had a lot of MFL digs in the last three years and we never found it.
We never found SEC. Your SME would be able to calibrate that result, right. And say, you know what? Based on all this data we do have, since we have a baseline, we did 20 gigs on the pipeline. We never found SEC. I’m going to shift that that that ranking or that potential. And so my point is not that that’s accurate or acceptable.
My point is to create a case to where this is why SME data can become so valuable. Right? It supplements data and it’s often the backbone for your decision.
Rhett Dotson
That’s so you use SMEs to help inform a decision that you would make. And I would assume those SMEs relied on some data. It’s interesting because we go into this conversation.
We come into it from two different perspectives. You often relied on the input of SMEs. I have throughout my career historically functioned as an SME. Yeah, but often not the SMEs. So much for these types of things in data integration, I function more as the SME as it’s mentioned in another part of the code we talked loosely about, which is 712.
And I do want to touch a little bit on the differences because I think we’ve heard that word before, but I don’t think we’ve seen as much attention in 712 as we see it here, on SMEs.
Christopher de Leon
But let’s define attention a little bit. Right. So, I want to interject there. So, we’ve seen SMEs used in regulation through like we mentioned earlier in ren1 through 712.
Right. Where they basically say an SME must review or confirm the results of this analysis. Right. And so, we’ve seen that before. But I think what films are highlights or what I wanted to surface in this discussion with our audience is they specifically want to you to address what I’ll either call the bounds and the bias of SMEs and how you’re accounting for it, in that it’s and the qualifications of your SMEs.
So, in short here they highlight that you qualify for SMEs are what makes an SME. And how are you checking the SMEs input. Right. So, it’s less about whether it’s 712 or 917. For me it’s more the role of the SMEs playing in each of them.
Rhett Dotson
So let me ask you a question. Maybe you choose the answer or not.
You mentioned you used SMEs, and you gave a specific example. Did you ever encounter a situation where the SME was wrong and if you did, how did you go about checking their inputs?
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. So, I’m going to make this personal through like my case point. Right. So often when we were doing in this case for 917, where you were doing threaded information, we would have to use often a qualitative measure, not a data-based measure to determine if we were susceptible to threat or not.
So, we’d have a questionnaire. And so, I would go to the people that are most involved with the asset. So, I would go to the local operations team and ask them for information. And often because they have such a good handle of what’s going on in the pipeline, that can often contradict what your system of record says. So, let’s say you did have this software that we paid for.
We did the data integration, and the results were conflicting for me, often this is my perspective. I would trust the SMEs in the field because they’re boots on the ground and because they have a lot more real time data to integrate as an SME, right? They’re involved in all the operations. Whereas if I had a software telling me, well, based on these inputs, we believe this is it, I would almost call that a lot of times dumb data.
So, for me, I put a lot of emphasis on my SMEs in the field. I’ll pause
Rhett Dotson
When do you say SMEs in the field, SMEs when you’re in the field or SMEs that are in the field?
Christopher de Leon
In the field, right. The guys that are close to the pipeline. So, I think this is one of the topics that firms want to highlight in 917 is what qualifies as SME.
And I would say operators really need to think about it. What specific areas or data sets you’re assigning SMEs to. Right. So, for example, corrosion tech in the field could be in SMEs for providing a specific data set. But maybe the corrosion tech in the field is not the SME for determining the threat susceptibility or not. And being able to separate those a little bit.
Rhett Dotson
So, you jump in, you’re jumping a little ahead of where I want to go. I, you know, before we go there, want to take the audience back through seven, 712 and 917 quick. So, I want to read nine Seventeens identification of an SME. And then I want to talk specifically about 712. I think you have 712 references for an SME.
To the maximum extent practical talking about your threat identification section, the revised portion of the data the new risk model if input is obtained from an SME.
An operator must employ adequate control measures to ensure consistency and accuracy of information. Control measures may include. We’ll talk a little more about this training of SMEs, or the use of outside technical experts to assess the quality of processes and the judgment of SMEs so SMEs, as they appear in Ren two, are focused on the data that they input into your risk model.
How does that compare to how SMEs are mentioned in Ren one, where we saw them in 712?
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. Here’s how. Here’s how I will choose to say it. I’ll choose to say it this way. I think 917 there’s kind of two components to it. One is the SME that could be supplementing data.
Right. So, their expertise or knowledge is providing the data. But 917 also has a component of now that I have the data, I need to decide if I’m susceptible to the threat or not. And so when you make that reference there about an external SME, I feel like it’s important to understand what role they play. So again, my takeaway from 917 as a, as a, as a, as a consultant or SMEs or having seen this for a while, I would say it’s important for the operator to understand what responsibility they’re assigning their different SMEs.
Is it a data component or is it a judgment or decision component and what qualifies them for that? You then asked about 712, right. So, 712 F is very specific.
Right. So, 712 F says that all analysis in 712, whether it be cracks or metal loss or dents, needs to be reviewed and confirmed by an SME. And offers no information about what qualifies in SME. It just says what their responsibility is.
Rhett Dotson
But that’s dealing more with the assessments on the back end, dealing with data on the front end that influences your decision-making process.
Christopher de Leon
So, this is more results based not data based. And so the picture that I’m painting is nine, seven, 12 can have a mixed flavor of SMEs providing data and making decisions. And we’re more used to at least so far. FEMSA referencing SMEs as to making decisions in the decision making process.
Rhett Dotson
So, FEMSA, goes through and I want to talk a little bit about this. There they go at length and talking about SME bias. Right. It said and they say regarding SME bias, FEMSA believes it is important for operators to address SME bias and data collection and risk assessment assessments to account for the reality of how humans think about risk.
Says operators should take this into consideration when incorporating SME opinion as fact. Or when treating input from all SMEs equivalent. And they point to this. You know, they keep making harping on this bias. They do it even earlier in the segment where they talk about the fact that SMEs are subject to bias. And they mentioned several times some controls to SMEs bias.
Which may include peer reviews, and third-party reviews of the SME. I want to talk a little bit about this from a personal perspective. Because it may surprise those in the audience to know, it would be easy for me is in SMEs to say, this is wrong, but I will take the position that I actually think FEMSA is correct.
Christopher de Leon
I want you to clarify what do you mean by FEMSA is correct.
Rhett Dotson
SMEs absolutely are subject to bias. We feel bias. And and I’m going to be honest, incentive structure in everything that we do. And when they say incentive structure people get scared. It’s like oh here’s the reality. I’m a service driven individual. I love serving people.
I love taking care of my clients. Yeah, more often than not, what my clients need is an answer that is good for them. We don’t need to excavate this. This threat isn’t as big as you thought it is. You can sleep at night. As an SME, one of the things you hate having to do is go into the room and be like, guys, it’s as bad as we thought it is.
Actually, it’s a little bit worse. We need to take care of this problem. Like that’s. You hate how you hate it when you do an assessment. You’re like, oh no, this is yeah, there’s no way out. Like, they basically hired me to tell them what they already knew. As an SME, that’s a that’s a very real struggle and wanting you’re your natural inclination is to want to take care of your customers.
You interpret it by giving them a happy response.
Christopher de Leon
Or another way to say it is it’s potentially that’s how you add value, right? It’s that value exchange, right? I’ll hire you. What value do I get in return? And that’s complicated. And so that’s kind of the way I like to think about it. It’s confirmation.
Right. And what’s interesting is it’s that’s what again, back to the reference that you challenged me with. That’s what 712 F is. That’s the objective of 712 F is if you’re doing these analysis, you want that SME confirmation. And I think that aligns a lot with kind of what you and I believe are thinking is it’s are you susceptible to bias?
Yes. However, being susceptible and and necessarily being a threat, I think you’re different. Right. And I think that’s where as a and send me with integrity, you understand that you may be performing analysis or you may be confirming something, but in the end of the day, the goal is to keep the pipe roun sound in the ground.
Rhett Dotson
And I agree, that’s our overarching desire. I always have to see past the short term objective to see the long term objective in the interest of public safety always overrules everything. but that doesn’t mean I’m not still cognizant of it. And I want to say something a lot of times, again, consultants can get a little bit of a dirty rap.
Because again, we do there is a profit motive there. There is a service motive there that we cannot ignore. But the reality is, is not necessarily different for internal SMEs either. I’ve seen internal SMEs that suffer from two things. One sometimes is maybe they don’t have all the information to solve the problem, and there’s a lot of pressure there to feel like I’m supposed to know this.
but I really don’t know everything about this. And more importantly, the decisions they make have consequences that are sometimes more real and direct on their integrity programs. You’re shaking your head.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, I just I think the risk the not not the risk, but rather the susceptibility of again, as an SME, if someone labels you as an SMEs, whether you’re internal or external, there’s, a legitimate pressure almost even a social pressure to be able to add value.
And that complicates things. And I think and I think FEMSA said it right. I’m not going to I’m not going to verbatim it in the, in the, in, in ren 2 information. But what they say is it’s while industry communicates certain qualifications and addressing SME bias, they say that as a result of inspections, incident investigations, that they just don’t see that being the case, right, that there is a clear need of having the work of SMEs checked.
And again, what I want to get back to is we find that in nine, seven, 12, I mean, in nine, 7917, right. 190 2.9 17, which is around threat identification and data integration and data supplementing through SMEs. But I do think that we should expect that FEMSA is going to carry that same expectation into the role of an SMEs and things like 712
Rhett Dotson
and in in addition, I want to speak about one other aspect where bias comes in.
That that’s a little more indirect, which is a lot of times SMEs even has the word expert. There’s, a notion known as expert bias, where as an expert, sometimes you’re not willing enough to think of yourself as wrong. And that’s something that I always have to be cognizant of. But I used to know, like, we had a lot of younger engineers that work with me at Rosen.
And I’d always tell them, you’re welcome to walk in this office and disagree with me. I want to hear you out.
Christopher de Leon
Oh, I had a lot of experience with that, where you’d have somebody that maybe had a couple more years experience challenges consultants.
It’s so hard to get them to think of things differently. It’s unbelievable.
Rhett Dotson
You know what? On that note, we’re going to take a break. We’re going to come back. We’re going to jump in after the break a little bit, talking about, requirements on SMEs and dig into that. We’ll be right back after we hear a word from, one of our sponsors.
Kara Turner
Hi, I’m Kara turner. I am the managing director and co-founder of ADV marketing. We get the honor of working with Rhett and Christopher to produce this crazy podcast, and also work with them on any other initiatives that they have when it comes to marketing. And if you know them or listening to this podcast, you know that it gets pretty crazy around here.
So we have a lot of fun with them. ADV marketing is a full service business to business marketing agency. We specialize in service companies and technology companies. So if you are enjoying listening to this podcast and the fun that they’re having, reach out to us and see how we can make your marketing fun.
Rhett Dotson
Welcome back to Pipeline Things, the dive into REN, two of the updated gas rule, and our discussion of SMEs here, with Chris and I. And so we jumped in to, when we left you right before the break. Pick up briefly was talking about the reality of bias. And I shared with you that in my position as a, as a consultant and an SMEs, that bias is real.
And our clients, I really hope that you guys hear that. Recognize that, yes, you do hire experts who are very talented. We do have many times a lot of information. We can serve you well, but we do have biases. And those motives are real. FEMSA gets into, some things that they see as controls over that bias.
Which I thought was interesting. And what they ultimately end up inputting into REN 2 of their rule is it says control measures may include training of SMEs, which I think is interesting, or the use of outside technical experts to assess the quality of processes and judgment of the SMEs. There’s actually more language in the preamble around that where they talk specifically about third party reviews.
I think, training of SMEs to recognize bias is one that I thought was, was interesting. I question how effective a training program would be depending upon the SMEs receiving it, which as I mentioned, I think some SMEs may be more receptive to that than others. And I also think, you know, the one that I’ve seen that I do actually support, and I will say unbiased, unabashedly, if you want to know whether or not you got the best assessment, you get a second third party to look over it.
It’s unequivocally the most expensive, but it’s the best. And I, I in my career have been through this multiple times. And I hate it where you’re sitting down because as the third party review. The third is telling you someone else’s. It’s just seagull engineering. You just fly in and just poop all over what you just said.
I try to bring value from because I recognize that much of what we do is subjective. So what I always try to do for the operator is be real and hey, I could interpret this differently, but maybe here’s the validity to what they did understand the opposite viewpoint.
That’s what I think a good third party person will do. But I have been on the other side where somebody dug in their heels just to disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, to the point where the operator said, you know what? We actually appreciate your opinion. You go and put that in your own report, and we’re just going to close this out.
And that’s unfortunate because literally it turns into a massive dogfight. But I will say this much. I made sure my eyes were dotted and my teeth were crossed on every single piece of that assessment, every input, every word in the report. Because I’m like, wow, they’re out to make me look bad.
It was like it was like a 200 page report when I was done, man. Because, I mean, they were just drilling me on everything. Yeah. So, so my opinion again, the most expensive way, but it is an effective way.
I just don’t know that it’s needed. Every single time.
Christopher de Leon
FEMSA, is a bit explicit as to what they’re asking for. And I think it is it is worth reading the comments in FEMSA’s response as it relates to, semi input. It is worth a read. We’re talking about it here, and I think we cover almost all the topics within it, but it is worth a read and a big part of what FEMSA wants and this is my opinion, we don’t have enough, you know, evidence since the REN 2 has come out right.
We don’t have any results of inspections, but I think something that operators should expect is that, in the next inspections, you know, the, in the, in your audits, for example, that they’re going to ask you, you know, where are you using SME’s. Is it in supplementing data is in making decisions. And then they’re going to ask you what are their qualifications.
And then what’s your review process. Right. How are you reviewing that. They are qualified to serve in that capacity. Right. So they explicitly say it and they give examples of that as they say, you know, do they have sufficient on the job training? You know, is it that they have certain experience? And I think operators, if you haven’t been doing that yet, it’s something you should really start looking into, right?
Identifying where your SMEs are used, how you’re using them and then what qualifies them. And they’ve been documented.
Rhett Dotson
So it’s interesting, it says to the degree that subjective data from SMEs must be used, FEMSA will require that the operator programs include specific features to compensate for us to be bias. This is in the preamble. Including training SMEs to recognize or avoid bias.
Right. So that’s how they define that SME training in the preamble. So I’m just a question, Chris, do you think I think you should have to go through asking me about your training? I think here at D2 tech we should have SME bias training.
Christopher de Leon
We should we should know we should do it live as part of these podcasts.
If you had a scenario, how would you take it? And then there you go. We can demonstrate. If I have bias.
Rhett Dotson
I wonder what that would look like.
Christopher de Leon
I think it’d be great if you guys gave us an example like Christopher. What would your example be if I had these two tools? Which one would you take? They could and then they could Seagull engineer me and find out why I chose the decisions I did.
Rhett Dotson
But I think in all of that anyway, training is also something that, you know, you kind of mentioned a little bit. You kind of got into a kick on the behaviors of an SME or the profile of an SME. And interesting because I struggle a little bit with that. I’ve you SMEs, what kind of knowledge you have?
I think people deploy it different ways. I so I think there can be very good SMEs, very poor SMEs. Yeah. A good SMEs may be receptive to feedback.
Christopher de Leon
Here’s I guess I I’ve been wanting to ask you this question so I’ll do it I’ll put you on, I’ll put you on the seat first.
Defining SMEs. If, however you choose to do that, what makes an SMEs in your own words, you don’t have to like make some formal list on your own.,
Rhett Dotson
I think I like to rely on and an SME is somebody who has specific knowledge of a subject, either broad or very, very focused, such that they can provide guidance to help make informed decisions.
I think the challenge, whenever you ask me, I immediately think of, hey, well, what makes you qualified? The qualification I truly believe is subjective. I believe the SMEs themselves has to recognize. This kind of goes back to the engineering code of ethics, right? You will only practice in areas with which you are competent. You have to know where your competency exist and where the limits are.
Yeah. So operators will often hear me tell them this on a phone call. You’re operating dangerously close to the limits of where I consider my expertise to be. And I will offer you an opinion on this. But you need to recognize I have limited expertise in this area, and I really try hard to let operators know that I’m there.
Christopher de Leon
And so let’s dig into that. Right. So you said expertise put more words behind it. What do you mean by expertise.
Rhett Dotson
So I would tell operators if you ask me a question about dents I can answer you a lot of questions about it. You ask me a question about it.
Christopher de Leon
So expertise you have expertise.
Rhett Dotson
I have done lots of substantiation for tons of analyzes.
I’ve done tons of full scale testing. I’ve written and read lots of papers, worked with many operators. I’ve seen dents in different forms. I’ve seen where you can get critical ones. I’ve seen what matters and what does it matter? I’ve evaluated dents not just from one vendor, but from many vendors. I’ve done comparisons across vendors I’ve looked at dents through a lot of different lenses.
Through that I would say that you learn lots of lessons, right? Like so for a long time. Look at them and think stress concentration factors have been really, really a big proponent of you. Right? It wasn’t until probably about two years ago where somebody challenged with data how maybe how those could be influenced by internal pressure.
And I had to step back and be like, wow, something I’ve kind of fundamentally helped you, who’s been challenged a little bit? I need to dig deeper in that and said, oh yeah, here are the situations under which you can actually matter. But you got to be willing to learn and recognize when you’re wrong. But lessons learned come up by just digesting and gathering information.
Christopher de Leon
So that’s where that’s kind of what I wanted to get into, right? So when I think of an SME, I feel like, again, you had a lot of your career outside of pipeline integrity as a consultant, right? Where I’ve been kind of born and raised in pipeline integrity and now serving as a consultant. And for me, there’s always this compliance component and really honed in integrity.
So when I think of an SME, I do break it up in at least two different groups. What the first question I ask is it’s what is the purpose of the SME in an integrity perspective? Are you providing me data and information or are you trying to help me make a decision?
Rhett Dotson
We want to thank you guys for joining us on this this arc here, in 2023 with Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, and my co-host, Mr. Christopher de Leon. And in two weeks, we will see you again. Thanks for joining us.
Welcome to today’s edition of Pipeline Things. As we get into the subject of SMEs and REN 2 of the updated gas world, where we also talk about the World Cup. So, Chris, would you agree? Pretty much everybody knows that the United States, the superior team to Mexico, correct.
Christopher de Leon
I don’t know if you’re qualified to make that statement
Rhett Dotson
Have you reviewed by qualifications as an SME
Christopher de Leon
just because you have a P, doesn’t mean you’re an expert?
Rhett Dotson
Well, you know what objective evidence attests to that this year? Because we got to the round of 16. We hope that you will enjoy this episode. Look forward to deep diving with us on SMEs and we hope you enjoy it. Thanks for joining us.
All right. Welcome to today’s edition of Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, and my co-host, compadre friend, business partner. I can come up all sorts of names for you
Christopher de Leon
homie. Crony. There’s all kinds of things.
Rhett Dotson
All positive, all positive. But designate it. Understood. World Cup SME for my family.
Christopher de Leon
Are you talking about me?
Rhett Dotson
Yes, I’m talking about you. So it’s, clearly, this is the once every four years where, people in America, the rest of the world watches it much more. Yeah, but everyone in America turns their attention towards soccer.
Christopher de Leon
Can you imagine the anticipation? So on average, and again, don’t check my math, but I think the World Cup is roughly like every thousand 500 days.
So like that’s kind of why it’s a big deal if you think,
Rhett Dotson
you know, a whole lot of people just try to do 356 times four in their head, whatever.
Christopher de Leon
You know, it’s kind of it’s kind of the whole lot?
Rhett Dotson
My wife asked this question, why does it every four years, do you know?
Christopher de Leon
I just I don’t know the actual reason.
I just think it makes it that much more exciting.
Rhett Dotson
I thought I was like the Olympics every four years. Why would the World Cup be every four years?
Christopher de Leon
But don’t the Olympics alternate every two between summer and winter?
Rhett Dotson
Come on, you’re not old enough to remember. It used to be that way. Yeah, they changed that so they could start having, like, Olympic type events every two years.
When I was growing up, they used to be summer. Winter.
Christopher de Leon
So, the cool thing about football is there’s a lot of it to be seen at the club level, which is like for example, this year. Right? So, there’s a lot of major tournaments like the master’s every year or whatever baseball calls it
And so it’s pretty cool. And but this is a world stage. So, this is really awesome. It kind of gets exciting. We saw a stat, right that I think the last Super Bowl, 100 million people saw it in the last World Cup final. Like a billion people saw it.
I don’t know if it’s true. I saw it on social media. So don’t check me.
Rhett Dotson
There are ten times the number of people that tune in to the I mean, 1 billion people.
Christopher de Leon
That’s a lot. That’s it for the world. Yeah, that’s a lot. That is it’s kind of like the Peyton Manning Beckham commercials of football or soccer.
I mean, it kind of depends, right?
Rhett Dotson
But it’s funny because So you guys, don’t know, my family has to call Christopher. I can follow the rules. Like, I think some of the rules in soccer. But Caleb will get into the game and he’s like, dad, are they playing well? And I’m like, I have no idea.
Well, you just text Mr. Christopher and ask him what he thinks of the United States performance, or anybody else’s performance during the game, and let him tell you what he thinks they should be doing.
Christopher de Leon
That’s fun. So, it’s always good. Yeah. You know what, if you think about it, to meet some of the qualifications Latino played growing up, watch it on a regular basis.
Rhett Dotson
Look, it’s a chance for you to break down for the audience. I don’t know how many people know that about you, Christopher, that you were pretty serious. I try to tell people Christopher wasn’t just like a slight soccer fan like you. Borderline wanted to play professionally for another country.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, I moved to another country for a while to try to make this my, my profession.
So, if you look at North America, I think the US does a great job more now of structuring the development of their talent for like you, your, when I was growing up, it was the Olympic Development program. That was a great way for you to get highlighted as a, as a player. Then you’d go to college and eventually end up in the MLS.
But for example, like the rest of the world, like in Mexico, the club team. So, like the Astros would be if we talk about baseball as an analogy, they will find talent as early as 11 years old and bring them into their club. And so, at the age of 13 or 14, you make money. And so, they provide housing, they provide you with education.
You train every day. They do. You have a nutritionist at least. So, like for example, Messi is Argentinian, but he grew up in the football club of Barcelona. And I think he transferred over like 11 years old. So, imagine being a dad sending your son away at the age of 11 years old to be with Club Barcelona.
Rhett Dotson
I honestly had no idea.
Christopher de Leon
So, it’s different.
Rhett Dotson
I’m glad that you didn’t make it.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, so I got to play for my favorite team, the Royals, Monterrey for a little while. It’s the Monterrey team. And so that’s when I got exposure. I didn’t get exposure since I was like 14, so I was a little bit late and then more aggressively when I was 17.
Rhett Dotson
Wait, but I feel like I’m carrying the segue way too far. No, I’m just into all this. You still have one of your old jerseys?
Christopher de Leon
I have a lot of jerseys. Still. Yeah, I have a bag full of them. In case a Leo wants to wear them one day.
Rhett Dotson
Oh I have nothing like that.
Christopher de Leon
but I got. I got mounds of trophies, too. Believe it or not.
Rhett Dotson
Caleb plays trombone with my old trombone from high school.
Christopher de Leon
So. But yeah. So, the World Cup’s fun, man. It’s been it’s been it’s been good.
It makes known. You know what’s interesting is it’s normally the summer and because I was in Qatar, they had to shift it to the winter because of the temperatures. Which I feel like is cool because we’re mixing in with holidays, you know what I mean? We got to be here Thanksgiving weekend, and you have football going on every day.
I mean, the weather in Houston is decent.
Rhett Dotson
Caleb was just upset because he couldn’t watch the game. So, school. But apparently his teachers all have them on, that is all. Watch them.
Christopher de Leon
So, well, you know, another funny story. So, Caleb is getting exposure to football, soccer, and doing the World Cup.
I also saw on social media that the US goalie he got exposure to, he was a baseball player, got exposure to the World Cup the last time the US played England ten years ago and now he’s our starting goalie. Caleb could be the starter. He might be the starting goalie in ten years.
Rhett Dotson
All right. Well, let’s go ahead. So, today our topic is carrying on Ren 2. Right. And we’re going to be talking about the role of SMEs. Within Ren 2. And full disclosure for the audience. I want you to know when you presented me with this topic because this topic was your idea. So, if you’ll like it, you can let Christopher know.
but when you presented it to me, I was a little bit kind of like he wasn’t so sure. Yeah. But as I read the background to, the introduction of SMEs within Ren 2, I kind of got on board, within liking, with liking the topic.
a lot of what’s in here we’re going to talk about today. I’m excited. So, what, what I want to kind of open with a little bit is talking about, I call it what and why. And I think to you, you’re just like, that’s not really that interesting, maybe because it ties to you, but they placed such an emphasis on it within Ren 2.
And I want to read just a little bit of the background. You know, to put things in perspective is in a risk-based IM approach. Data collection and integration is the backbone of an effective integrity management program. But we gloss over that statement so much. Right. This is the standard garbage in garbage out.
Yeah. But FEMSA are saying look if you’re going to have an effective integrity management program, the collection and integration of that data is essential, right? And then they said, you know, they go through, and they talk about, their ideas for operators, what they should have been doing. Yeah. But they say the over application of assumptions in the absence of real data, even if those assumptions are conservative, can lead to skews, skewed or otherwise inaccurate analysis of risk results.
Right. And then they point to the fact that to the degree that subjective data from SMEs must be used, FEMSA would require programs that include specific features to compensate for SME bias, and that those three statements together, I think, provide the genesis of what we’re going to talk about today. Input into your data integration program is critical for the proper application
Christopher de Leon
Because you’re making decisions off it.
Rhett Dotson
because you’re making decisions off it.
Second, you must rely on assumptions, assumptions that are often based on some input. Therefore, you need to make sure that that’s valid.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. Right. And let’s put it into frame. And the reason why I thought this was important was we had to do this quite a bit when I was an operator. Right. So, let’s assume your IM program started around 2004.
If we just let’s put that into perspective. And you’re at that time up until about 2012, when you were still doing your baseline assessments. What we’re talking about here is threat identification and risk assessment. Right. So what threats am I susceptible to in those times you probably didn’t have all the data in a system in a way to understand what you’re truly susceptible to or not.
And so, we leverage this concept of continuous improvement. Right. So, you do baselines. And then based on what you learned from the baseline with the whole integrity cycle though. Right. So, I collected data for it. I did an assessment I learned from that assessment. Maybe I did some digs. I learned about my coding and my material properties. You then take all that and you reintegrate that the next time around through continued evaluation.
And so, the point is this when you were standing up these integrity programs, you didn’t always have the data. So, you kind of relied on SMEs. Right. Let’s use that. So, let’s say for example, you stood up this risk model because you needed one and it was asking you for coding type. And they, you use B 30 18S for SEC susceptibility.
And if you have the right age operating pressures, environment and coding, then you could be susceptible. But if an asset that we had we’ve been operating for 50 years, we never found SEC on it. But your risk program was telling you that it was your highest segment of SEC. But I have had a lot of MFL digs in the last three years and we never found it.
We never found SEC. Your SME would be able to calibrate that result, right. And say, you know what? Based on all this data we do have, since we have a baseline, we did 20 gigs on the pipeline. We never found SEC. I’m going to shift that that that ranking or that potential. And so my point is not that that’s accurate or acceptable.
My point is to create a case to where this is why SME data can become so valuable. Right? It supplements data and it’s often the backbone for your decision.
Rhett Dotson
That’s so you use SMEs to help inform a decision that you would make. And I would assume those SMEs relied on some data. It’s interesting because we go into this conversation.
We come into it from two different perspectives. You often relied on the input of SMEs. I have throughout my career historically functioned as an SME. Yeah, but often not the SMEs. So much for these types of things in data integration, I function more as the SME as it’s mentioned in another part of the code we talked loosely about, which is 712.
And I do want to touch a little bit on the differences because I think we’ve heard that word before, but I don’t think we’ve seen as much attention in 712 as we see it here, on SMEs.
Christopher de Leon
But let’s define attention a little bit. Right. So, I want to interject there. So, we’ve seen SMEs used in regulation through like we mentioned earlier in ren1 through 712.
Right. Where they basically say an SME must review or confirm the results of this analysis. Right. And so, we’ve seen that before. But I think what films are highlights or what I wanted to surface in this discussion with our audience is they specifically want to you to address what I’ll either call the bounds and the bias of SMEs and how you’re accounting for it, in that it’s and the qualifications of your SMEs.
So, in short here they highlight that you qualify for SMEs are what makes an SME. And how are you checking the SMEs input. Right. So, it’s less about whether it’s 712 or 917. For me it’s more the role of the SMEs playing in each of them.
Rhett Dotson
So let me ask you a question. Maybe you choose the answer or not.
You mentioned you used SMEs, and you gave a specific example. Did you ever encounter a situation where the SME was wrong and if you did, how did you go about checking their inputs?
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. So, I’m going to make this personal through like my case point. Right. So often when we were doing in this case for 917, where you were doing threaded information, we would have to use often a qualitative measure, not a data-based measure to determine if we were susceptible to threat or not.
So, we’d have a questionnaire. And so, I would go to the people that are most involved with the asset. So, I would go to the local operations team and ask them for information. And often because they have such a good handle of what’s going on in the pipeline, that can often contradict what your system of record says. So, let’s say you did have this software that we paid for.
We did the data integration, and the results were conflicting for me, often this is my perspective. I would trust the SMEs in the field because they’re boots on the ground and because they have a lot more real time data to integrate as an SME, right? They’re involved in all the operations. Whereas if I had a software telling me, well, based on these inputs, we believe this is it, I would almost call that a lot of times dumb data.
So, for me, I put a lot of emphasis on my SMEs in the field. I’ll pause
Rhett Dotson
When do you say SMEs in the field, SMEs when you’re in the field or SMEs that are in the field?
Christopher de Leon
In the field, right. The guys that are close to the pipeline. So, I think this is one of the topics that firms want to highlight in 917 is what qualifies as SME.
And I would say operators really need to think about it. What specific areas or data sets you’re assigning SMEs to. Right. So, for example, corrosion tech in the field could be in SMEs for providing a specific data set. But maybe the corrosion tech in the field is not the SME for determining the threat susceptibility or not. And being able to separate those a little bit.
Rhett Dotson
So, you jump in, you’re jumping a little ahead of where I want to go. I, you know, before we go there, want to take the audience back through seven, 712 and 917 quick. So, I want to read nine Seventeens identification of an SME. And then I want to talk specifically about 712. I think you have 712 references for an SME.
To the maximum extent practical talking about your threat identification section, the revised portion of the data the new risk model if input is obtained from an SME.
An operator must employ adequate control measures to ensure consistency and accuracy of information. Control measures may include. We’ll talk a little more about this training of SMEs, or the use of outside technical experts to assess the quality of processes and the judgment of SMEs so SMEs, as they appear in Ren two, are focused on the data that they input into your risk model.
How does that compare to how SMEs are mentioned in Ren one, where we saw them in 712?
Christopher de Leon
Yeah. Here’s how. Here’s how I will choose to say it. I’ll choose to say it this way. I think 917 there’s kind of two components to it. One is the SME that could be supplementing data.
Right. So, their expertise or knowledge is providing the data. But 917 also has a component of now that I have the data, I need to decide if I’m susceptible to the threat or not. And so when you make that reference there about an external SME, I feel like it’s important to understand what role they play. So again, my takeaway from 917 as a, as a, as a, as a consultant or SMEs or having seen this for a while, I would say it’s important for the operator to understand what responsibility they’re assigning their different SMEs.
Is it a data component or is it a judgment or decision component and what qualifies them for that? You then asked about 712, right. So, 712 F is very specific.
Right. So, 712 F says that all analysis in 712, whether it be cracks or metal loss or dents, needs to be reviewed and confirmed by an SME. And offers no information about what qualifies in SME. It just says what their responsibility is.
Rhett Dotson
But that’s dealing more with the assessments on the back end, dealing with data on the front end that influences your decision-making process.
Christopher de Leon
So, this is more results based not data based. And so the picture that I’m painting is nine, seven, 12 can have a mixed flavor of SMEs providing data and making decisions. And we’re more used to at least so far. FEMSA referencing SMEs as to making decisions in the decision making process.
Rhett Dotson
So, FEMSA, goes through and I want to talk a little bit about this. There they go at length and talking about SME bias. Right. It said and they say regarding SME bias, FEMSA believes it is important for operators to address SME bias and data collection and risk assessment assessments to account for the reality of how humans think about risk.
Says operators should take this into consideration when incorporating SME opinion as fact. Or when treating input from all SMEs equivalent. And they point to this. You know, they keep making harping on this bias. They do it even earlier in the segment where they talk about the fact that SMEs are subject to bias. And they mentioned several times some controls to SMEs bias.
Which may include peer reviews, and third-party reviews of the SME. I want to talk a little bit about this from a personal perspective. Because it may surprise those in the audience to know, it would be easy for me is in SMEs to say, this is wrong, but I will take the position that I actually think FEMSA is correct.
Christopher de Leon
I want you to clarify what do you mean by FEMSA is correct.
Rhett Dotson
SMEs absolutely are subject to bias. We feel bias. And and I’m going to be honest, incentive structure in everything that we do. And when they say incentive structure people get scared. It’s like oh here’s the reality. I’m a service driven individual. I love serving people.
I love taking care of my clients. Yeah, more often than not, what my clients need is an answer that is good for them. We don’t need to excavate this. This threat isn’t as big as you thought it is. You can sleep at night. As an SME, one of the things you hate having to do is go into the room and be like, guys, it’s as bad as we thought it is.
Actually, it’s a little bit worse. We need to take care of this problem. Like that’s. You hate how you hate it when you do an assessment. You’re like, oh no, this is yeah, there’s no way out. Like, they basically hired me to tell them what they already knew. As an SME, that’s a that’s a very real struggle and wanting you’re your natural inclination is to want to take care of your customers.
You interpret it by giving them a happy response.
Christopher de Leon
Or another way to say it is it’s potentially that’s how you add value, right? It’s that value exchange, right? I’ll hire you. What value do I get in return? And that’s complicated. And so that’s kind of the way I like to think about it. It’s confirmation.
Right. And what’s interesting is it’s that’s what again, back to the reference that you challenged me with. That’s what 712 F is. That’s the objective of 712 F is if you’re doing these analysis, you want that SME confirmation. And I think that aligns a lot with kind of what you and I believe are thinking is it’s are you susceptible to bias?
Yes. However, being susceptible and and necessarily being a threat, I think you’re different. Right. And I think that’s where as a and send me with integrity, you understand that you may be performing analysis or you may be confirming something, but in the end of the day, the goal is to keep the pipe roun sound in the ground.
Rhett Dotson
And I agree, that’s our overarching desire. I always have to see past the short term objective to see the long term objective in the interest of public safety always overrules everything. but that doesn’t mean I’m not still cognizant of it. And I want to say something a lot of times, again, consultants can get a little bit of a dirty rap.
Because again, we do there is a profit motive there. There is a service motive there that we cannot ignore. But the reality is, is not necessarily different for internal SMEs either. I’ve seen internal SMEs that suffer from two things. One sometimes is maybe they don’t have all the information to solve the problem, and there’s a lot of pressure there to feel like I’m supposed to know this.
but I really don’t know everything about this. And more importantly, the decisions they make have consequences that are sometimes more real and direct on their integrity programs. You’re shaking your head.
Christopher de Leon
Yeah, I just I think the risk the not not the risk, but rather the susceptibility of again, as an SME, if someone labels you as an SMEs, whether you’re internal or external, there’s, a legitimate pressure almost even a social pressure to be able to add value.
And that complicates things. And I think and I think FEMSA said it right. I’m not going to I’m not going to verbatim it in the, in the, in, in ren 2 information. But what they say is it’s while industry communicates certain qualifications and addressing SME bias, they say that as a result of inspections, incident investigations, that they just don’t see that being the case, right, that there is a clear need of having the work of SMEs checked.
And again, what I want to get back to is we find that in nine, seven, 12, I mean, in nine, 7917, right. 190 2.9 17, which is around threat identification and data integration and data supplementing through SMEs. But I do think that we should expect that FEMSA is going to carry that same expectation into the role of an SMEs and things like 712
Rhett Dotson
and in in addition, I want to speak about one other aspect where bias comes in.
That that’s a little more indirect, which is a lot of times SMEs even has the word expert. There’s, a notion known as expert bias, where as an expert, sometimes you’re not willing enough to think of yourself as wrong. And that’s something that I always have to be cognizant of. But I used to know, like, we had a lot of younger engineers that work with me at Rosen.
And I’d always tell them, you’re welcome to walk in this office and disagree with me. I want to hear you out.
Christopher de Leon
Oh, I had a lot of experience with that, where you’d have somebody that maybe had a couple more years experience challenges consultants.
It’s so hard to get them to think of things differently. It’s unbelievable.
Rhett Dotson
You know what? On that note, we’re going to take a break. We’re going to come back. We’re going to jump in after the break a little bit, talking about, requirements on SMEs and dig into that. We’ll be right back after we hear a word from, one of our sponsors.
Kara Turner
Hi, I’m Kara turner. I am the managing director and co-founder of ADV marketing. We get the honor of working with Rhett and Christopher to produce this crazy podcast, and also work with them on any other initiatives that they have when it comes to marketing. And if you know them or listening to this podcast, you know that it gets pretty crazy around here.
So we have a lot of fun with them. ADV marketing is a full service business to business marketing agency. We specialize in service companies and technology companies. So if you are enjoying listening to this podcast and the fun that they’re having, reach out to us and see how we can make your marketing fun.
Rhett Dotson
Welcome back to Pipeline Things, the dive into REN, two of the updated gas rule, and our discussion of SMEs here, with Chris and I. And so we jumped in to, when we left you right before the break. Pick up briefly was talking about the reality of bias. And I shared with you that in my position as a, as a consultant and an SMEs, that bias is real.
And our clients, I really hope that you guys hear that. Recognize that, yes, you do hire experts who are very talented. We do have many times a lot of information. We can serve you well, but we do have biases. And those motives are real. FEMSA gets into, some things that they see as controls over that bias.
Which I thought was interesting. And what they ultimately end up inputting into REN 2 of their rule is it says control measures may include training of SMEs, which I think is interesting, or the use of outside technical experts to assess the quality of processes and judgment of the SMEs. There’s actually more language in the preamble around that where they talk specifically about third party reviews.
I think, training of SMEs to recognize bias is one that I thought was, was interesting. I question how effective a training program would be depending upon the SMEs receiving it, which as I mentioned, I think some SMEs may be more receptive to that than others. And I also think, you know, the one that I’ve seen that I do actually support, and I will say unbiased, unabashedly, if you want to know whether or not you got the best assessment, you get a second third party to look over it.
It’s unequivocally the most expensive, but it’s the best. And I, I in my career have been through this multiple times. And I hate it where you’re sitting down because as the third party review. The third is telling you someone else’s. It’s just seagull engineering. You just fly in and just poop all over what you just said.
I try to bring value from because I recognize that much of what we do is subjective. So what I always try to do for the operator is be real and hey, I could interpret this differently, but maybe here’s the validity to what they did understand the opposite viewpoint.
That’s what I think a good third party person will do. But I have been on the other side where somebody dug in their heels just to disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, to the point where the operator said, you know what? We actually appreciate your opinion. You go and put that in your own report, and we’re just going to close this out.
And that’s unfortunate because literally it turns into a massive dogfight. But I will say this much. I made sure my eyes were dotted and my teeth were crossed on every single piece of that assessment, every input, every word in the report. Because I’m like, wow, they’re out to make me look bad.
It was like it was like a 200 page report when I was done, man. Because, I mean, they were just drilling me on everything. Yeah. So, so my opinion again, the most expensive way, but it is an effective way.
I just don’t know that it’s needed. Every single time.
Christopher de Leon
FEMSA, is a bit explicit as to what they’re asking for. And I think it is it is worth reading the comments in FEMSA’s response as it relates to, semi input. It is worth a read. We’re talking about it here, and I think we cover almost all the topics within it, but it is worth a read and a big part of what FEMSA wants and this is my opinion, we don’t have enough, you know, evidence since the REN 2 has come out right.
We don’t have any results of inspections, but I think something that operators should expect is that, in the next inspections, you know, the, in the, in your audits, for example, that they’re going to ask you, you know, where are you using SME’s. Is it in supplementing data is in making decisions. And then they’re going to ask you what are their qualifications.
And then what’s your review process. Right. How are you reviewing that. They are qualified to serve in that capacity. Right. So they explicitly say it and they give examples of that as they say, you know, do they have sufficient on the job training? You know, is it that they have certain experience? And I think operators, if you haven’t been doing that yet, it’s something you should really start looking into, right?
Identifying where your SMEs are used, how you’re using them and then what qualifies them. And they’ve been documented.
Rhett Dotson
So it’s interesting, it says to the degree that subjective data from SMEs must be used, FEMSA will require that the operator programs include specific features to compensate for us to be bias. This is in the preamble. Including training SMEs to recognize or avoid bias.
Right. So that’s how they define that SME training in the preamble. So I’m just a question, Chris, do you think I think you should have to go through asking me about your training? I think here at D2 tech we should have SME bias training.
Christopher de Leon
We should we should know we should do it live as part of these podcasts.
If you had a scenario, how would you take it? And then there you go. We can demonstrate. If I have bias.
Rhett Dotson
I wonder what that would look like.
Christopher de Leon
I think it’d be great if you guys gave us an example like Christopher. What would your example be if I had these two tools? Which one would you take? They could and then they could Seagull engineer me and find out why I chose the decisions I did.
Rhett Dotson
But I think in all of that anyway, training is also something that, you know, you kind of mentioned a little bit. You kind of got into a kick on the behaviors of an SME or the profile of an SME. And interesting because I struggle a little bit with that. I’ve you SMEs, what kind of knowledge you have?
I think people deploy it different ways. I so I think there can be very good SMEs, very poor SMEs. Yeah. A good SMEs may be receptive to feedback.
Christopher de Leon
Here’s I guess I I’ve been wanting to ask you this question so I’ll do it I’ll put you on, I’ll put you on the seat first.
Defining SMEs. If, however you choose to do that, what makes an SMEs in your own words, you don’t have to like make some formal list on your own.,
Rhett Dotson
I think I like to rely on and an SME is somebody who has specific knowledge of a subject, either broad or very, very focused, such that they can provide guidance to help make informed decisions.
I think the challenge, whenever you ask me, I immediately think of, hey, well, what makes you qualified? The qualification I truly believe is subjective. I believe the SMEs themselves has to recognize. This kind of goes back to the engineering code of ethics, right? You will only practice in areas with which you are competent. You have to know where your competency exist and where the limits are.
Yeah. So operators will often hear me tell them this on a phone call. You’re operating dangerously close to the limits of where I consider my expertise to be. And I will offer you an opinion on this. But you need to recognize I have limited expertise in this area, and I really try hard to let operators know that I’m there.
Christopher de Leon
And so let’s dig into that. Right. So you said expertise put more words behind it. What do you mean by expertise.
Rhett Dotson
So I would tell operators if you ask me a question about dents I can answer you a lot of questions about it. You ask me a question about it.
Christopher de Leon
So expertise you have expertise.
Rhett Dotson
I have done lots of substantiation for tons of analyzes.
I’ve done tons of full scale testing. I’ve written and read lots of papers, worked with many operators. I’ve seen dents in different forms. I’ve seen where you can get critical ones. I’ve seen what matters and what does it matter? I’ve evaluated dents not just from one vendor, but from many vendors. I’ve done comparisons across vendors I’ve looked at dents through a lot of different lenses.
Through that I would say that you learn lots of lessons, right? Like so for a long time. Look at them and think stress concentration factors have been really, really a big proponent of you. Right? It wasn’t until probably about two years ago where somebody challenged with data how maybe how those could be influenced by internal pressure.
And I had to step back and be like, wow, something I’ve kind of fundamentally helped you, who’s been challenged a little bit? I need to dig deeper in that and said, oh yeah, here are the situations under which you can actually matter. But you got to be willing to learn and recognize when you’re wrong. But lessons learned come up by just digesting and gathering information.
Christopher de Leon
So that’s where that’s kind of what I wanted to get into, right? So when I think of an SME, I feel like, again, you had a lot of your career outside of pipeline integrity as a consultant, right? Where I’ve been kind of born and raised in pipeline integrity and now serving as a consultant. And for me, there’s always this compliance component and really honed in integrity.
So when I think of an SME, I do break it up in at least two different groups. What the first question I ask is it’s what is the purpose of the SME in an integrity perspective? Are you providing me data and information or are you trying to help me make a decision?
Rhett Dotson
We want to thank you guys for joining us on this this arc here, in 2023 with Pipeline Things. I am your host, Rhett Dotson, and my co-host, Mr. Christopher de Leon. And in two weeks, we will see you again. Thanks for joining us.